It is long indeed since we saw one of Durin's folk in Caras Galadhon. But today we have broken our long law. May it be a sign that though the world is now dark better days are at hand, and that friendship shall be renewed between our peoples.
From The Mirror of Galadriel There was a silence. At length Celeborn spoke again. I will do what I can to aid you Last edited: Jun 17, Interesting arguments from Thorondor and Turgon. But arguments without substance. Lets take a closer look. Firstly, Celeborn So Galadriel points out that Celeborn IS being prejudiced.
Of course the quote Turgon gives But today we have broken our long law. The awakening of the Balrog was obviously a big deal, especially to the elves who remember well the First Age , doubly so for those who lived in Lorien, add the killing of Thingol into the mix and Celeborn has plenty of reason for enmity. Despite being told a hundred times to stay on the road, despite insulting the elves and ruining what could have been a ripping feast?
Despite refusing to answer for their appearance in the woods? Starving were they? Well if Bombur hadn't ate all the pies. The elves treated them quite well regardless. I wonder if a party of elves would have been treated any differently if they had blundered into the middle of secret dwarf realm? Probably not, in fact it would probably have gone worse for them. Anyway in consequence of these actions, Thorin refuses to give Bard his fair share of Smaug 's hoard, simply because the lake-men have allied themselves to Thranduil?
Regardless of the right or wrongs of either party. Taking your grievances out on an innocent third party, a party who had given you succor in your hour of need? Petty, as were most of Thorin's actions when he got his hand on the gold. Did the wood-elves fall upon the ruined Lake-town for giving refuge to the escaped dwarves? No, they gave them aid. Did the dwarves go running to the aid of Lake Town after they saw Smaug thundering down in that direction?
Did the send aid after they learnt that Smaug was dead? What was there reaction when there former friends turn up at the gate? Jog on. The dwarves are not happless victims of elven hate-crimes. Don't stray off the track! So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy.
In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. This makes it much more institutional, and therefore serious. They will love first the things made by their own hands, as doth their father. They will delve in the earth, and the things that grow and live upon the earth they will not heed.
Many a tree shall feel the bite of their iron without pity. A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor , or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships.
But I thank you, since the rest of this statement says, yes, the dwarves have done nothing wrong since Doriath, and the elves were holding on to a year grudge.
Gandalf was very well acquainted with the wood-elves. He clearly didn't think trespassing was a major problem. But they just shouldn't have imprisoned them in the first place,. As for Turgon 's statement that dwarves would have done the same or worse if the roles had been reversed, I doubt the judges will overlook the complete lack of evidence or examples to back that up. They may have stopped and helped the Lake Men along the way, but Oxfam they are not.
Probably most of them would have perished in the winter that now hurried after autumn, if help had not been to hand. But help came swiftly; for Bard at once had speedy messengers sent up the river to the Forest to ask the aid of the King of the Elves of the Wood, and these messengers had found a host already on the move, although it was then only the third day after the fall of Smaug.
But the king, when he received the prayers of Bard, had pity , for he was the lord of a good and kindly people; so turning his march , which had at first been direct towards the Mountain, he hastened now down the river to the Long Lake.
Maedhros The Tall. Lets see the history of how the relationship of the "enmity" of the dwarves and elves : From The Hobbit : Chapter 8 Flies and Spiders It was also the dungeon of his prisoners. So to the cave they dragged Thorin-not too gently, for they did not love dwarves, and thought he was an enemy.
It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bargained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise.
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath , and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more and Gondolin was not known , the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems for much was yet unwrought into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.
Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, all that my father ever wrote on the subject of the ruin of Doriath has now been set out: from the original story told in the Tale of Turambar II. If these materials are compared with the story told in The Silmarillion it is seen at once that this latter is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's own writings.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin , to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative.
It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.
Maedhros said:. Too bad that this is wrong. As proven above. Let me briefly clear up this accusation of lies levelled at me by the Honourable Member for Gundabad North - that is to say Mr Snaga. It was put forward that the dwarves were in no way to blame for what happened in Mirkwood , and to this I answered, rightly in my opinion, that they had been warned well enough before ever they entered.
Regardless of Gandalf 's and Beorn 's worries about what would happen once they were inside, they had clear instructions not to go off the road. If they had followed this advice they would have had no trouble at all. Actually Snaga, regarding the insult, I was thinking about this. Are the spiders your tame beasts or pets, if killing them makes you angry? Do you forget that you were in my kingdom, using the road my people made? Did you not three times pursue and trouble my my people in the forest and rouse the spiders with your riot and clamour?
After all the disturbance you have made I have a right to know what brings you here, and if you will not tell me know, I will keep you an in prison until you have learned some sense and manners. They gave him food and drink , plenty of both, if not very fine; for Wood-elves were not goblins , and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when the captured them.
The giant spiders were the only living thing they had no mercy upon. I have to agree with Thorondor here, much of the Quenta Noldorinwa is at odds with what is established Tolkien canon. In fact you completely failed to put the following into your third quote, it should go somewhere in the middle of it.
There were very evident problems with the old story. How he would have treated Thingol 's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say.
That story was only once told fully,in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint precursor of Thingol was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king see II. In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: 'Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves' , unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p.
In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian , but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version p. In another place he sketched a possible solution ibid. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves. For one, who annoyed the other first isn't what we're looking for. The topic is looking for who was most to blame. Even if one side started it first, a greater quantity and magnitude of enmity generated by the other side would equal the win.
For another, hey, why are we even allowing information from all kinds of different sources, if it's just going to be disregarded? Turgon person, the point that I was attempting to make, when it came to the results of that whole Nauglamir episode, was that, even if both sides ended up with some enmity, the Dwarves ended up with way more. Towards elves renaming things and the hunting of Petty Dwarves , reasons for doing such things don't matter.
The point was that enmity was produced by the elves. Even if elves renaming things is reasonable, you would admit that some enmity was produced. Even if the more admirable types of Dwarves weren't such large fans of the Petty types, why would enmity not fester?
Towards elves stealing Nargothrond , Argh. Now I have to hunt a quote. Long ere King Finrod Felagund came over the Sea, the caves of Nargothrond were discovered by them, and by them its delving was begun;" Good enough? Even if they were merely the Petty sort of Dwarf , enmity existed. Towards the evil elves in Rivendell , hey, we aren't debating about how sensitive the Dwarves are or should be. We are debating about how much enmity was caused.
Okay, so the Dwarves were overly sensitive, in this case. Enmity was still caused by elves. What else is there? Lots of writing about stuff not directly related to who caused the most enmity. While the death of Thingol and the claiming of the Silmaril is the key cause of bad blood between these two races in Middle-earth, it could be argued that Elves and Dwarves were always destined to be at odds with each other. Although the story of Thingol is a lesser-known Tolkien tale, it might feel thematically similar to many The Lord of the Rings fans, with a widespread conflict caused by greed, a lust for precious things, and a smattering of personal treachery.
The War of the Ring was triggered in much the same circumstances and while it's not necessary to know the history of the conflict to enjoy Legolas and Gimli's arc, it's perhaps significant that their friendship comes about as a result of trying to destroy a highly-prized treasure, when their races started fighting after the creation of a one. Craig first began contributing to Screen Rant in , several years after graduating college, and has been ranting ever since, mostly to himself in a darkened room.
Having previously written for various sports and music outlets, Craig's interest soon turned to TV and film, where a steady upbringing of science fiction and comic books finally came into its own. Craig has previously been published on sites such as Den of Geek, and after many coffee-drenched hours hunched over a laptop, part-time evening work eventually turned into a full-time career covering everything from the zombie apocalypse to the Starship Enterprise via the TARDIS.
Since joining the Screen Rant fold, Craig has been involved in breaking news stories and mildly controversial ranking lists, but now works predominantly as a features writer. By Craig Elvy Published Dec 28, Their relationship remains hostile throughout the first film in the series but eventually develops into a genuine friendship. The pair symbolically breaks down the historic barriers between their species but never explain the origins of the feud. Lord of the Rings author J. Tolkien wrote the history of their rivalry in The Silmarillion.
Before the events of the Lord of the Rings series, dwarves and elves maintained a cool but civil relationship with one another. The two species once fought side-by-side against the Orcs. But King Thingol's thirst for an Elvish jewel called a Silmaril led to the deterioration of that relationship. Thingol orders the dwarves of Belegost to craft a piece of jewelry into which the Silmaril could be set into.
The dwarves made a beautiful necklace for the jewel, but they didn't want to give it up. This led to an all-out battle between the dwarves and elves.
Greed and jealousy eventually lead to the death of a number of dwarves and the assassination of Thingol.
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